Curse

Zinger314 · May 16, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

The Hard Mode hype has died down within a month of its release. There are very few groups LFGing for Hard Mode, therefore forcing Heroes/Henches and/or guild contact. I haven't seen a single "LFM Hard Mode" in the Alliance Chat in two weeks (I am in [SMS], one of the biggest PvE Alliances. Or just Racthoh and his posse, depending on your point of view.)

Why aren't people playing Hard Mode? Lots of reasons. But there are ways to fix these problems...

Difficulty: Yes, Hard Mode is hard. But it's Hard for the wrong reasons: It might have just been called "You Must Bring Two Copies of Protective Spirit Here" Mode. There is no way you'll beat a large majority of the Elementalist/Ritualist bosses without a good Protective Spirit. The difficulty itself doesn't need to be changed; the PvE Sunspear skills might make Hard Mode easier. But could there be a little retweaking of the the bosses who deal 500+ damage Meteors?
Reward: You have to go for broke in Hard Mode just to get something out of it. Legendary Guardian/Vanquisher or bust. After that...what then? Those titles need to hold a little more significance due to the difficulty involved. A small step would be to change the reward for Vanquishing an area to 10g per enemy, no EXP. Areas tend to have 200ish enemies, so it would be 2k per area. It's a decent Reward::Time.
Hard Mode Unique Loot: How often do you see Tomes drop? Scrolls? Too rarely, for what they do. Tomes/Scrolls are basically a 1k gold drop. But keep in mind...THIS IS HARD MODE! Loot should scale accordingly! Permanently increase the drop rates on Scrolls/Tomes (I recommend atleast 5x. Seriously. Convience doesn't hurt the economy.) and people will be a lot happier.
Anti-Farming in Hard Mode: Gaile Grey said that the Anti-Farming code isn't in Hard Mode. I, among many others with personal anecdotes, think she is wrong. A confirmation of either event would go a long way in Hard Mode PR.
LFG: Human parties can offer a huge advantage over Henchman/Heroes (even moreso if the PvE Sunspear skills are decent). Of course, it's hard to find people when they are spead across 56 missions, thus forces a reliability on H/H, Guildies. The only way to fix it is to make the Party Search affect the entire world for Hard Mode. Communities shouldn't have to have their own solution to this problem (although people such have Dralspire and Azarel STX have helped.)

I know many people have given up on GW's PvE due to its Sysphisian nature and gone to WoW instead (which takes a few months before it suffers from a Sysphisian nature). ArenaNet just finished with the ATS; can't they look at the PvE side of the game for once? (like maybe releasing the aforementioned Sunspear PvE skills which were intended to be released with Hard Mode a month ago?)

VanDamselx · May 16, 2007, 03:42 AM // 03:42

I wanted to rebuild my guild specifically for hard mode and seriously, the hype was over within a week. Now it seems no one wants to do it, it's hard to find a competent group and there just isn't enough incentive to do it for me. Granted, I love title grind and I'm really happy they implemented this. However, it's so hard to find a good group willing to stick it out for the amount of time needed. I hope more people get motivated to do it

The Great Al · May 16, 2007, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Agree 100%. The only use for HM for me is farming LB points. I've said all along that Anet has shown that they don't understand that greater challenge = greater rewards...ever since the elite missions for Factions. You can go through a mission for (what was originally 3 hours, now down to maybe 1.5), with for the most part, terrible drops...but at least the drops in the Elite missions were pretty good/rare compared to normal canthan drops, at least in the beginning. I haven't even noticed a difference in the drops between NM and HM. I wouldn't mind the difficulty so much if there was actually a reason for going through with it.

Alderin · May 16, 2007, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

The Hard Mode hype has died down within a month of its release. There are very few groups LFGing for Hard Mode, therefore forcing Heroes/Henches and/or guild contact. I haven't seen a single "LFM Hard Mode" in the Alliance Chat in two weeks (I am in [SMS], one of the biggest PvE Alliances. Or just Racthoh and his posse, depending on your point of view.)

Why aren't people playing Hard Mode? Lots of reasons. But there are ways to fix these problems...

Difficulty: Yes, Hard Mode is hard. But it's Hard for the wrong reasons: It might have just been called "You Must Bring Two Copies of Protective Spirit Here" Mode. There is no way you'll beat a large majority of the Elementalist/Ritualist bosses without a good Protective Spirit. The difficulty itself doesn't need to be changed; the PvE Sunspear skills might make Hard Mode easier. But could there be a little retweaking of the the bosses who deal 500+ damage Meteors?
Reward: You have to go for broke in Hard Mode just to get something out of it. Legendary Guardian/Vanquisher or bust. After that...what then? Those titles need to hold a little more significance due to the difficulty involved. A small step would be to change the reward for Vanquishing an area to 10g per enemy, no EXP. Areas tend to have 200ish enemies, so it would be 2k per area. It's a decent Reward::Time.
Hard Mode Unique Loot: How often do you see Tomes drop? Scrolls? Too rarely, for what they do. Tomes/Scrolls are basically a 1k gold drop. But keep in mind...THIS IS HARD MODE! Loot should scale accordingly! Permanently increase the drop rates on Scrolls/Tomes (I recommend atleast 5x. Seriously. Convience doesn't hurt the economy.) and people will be a lot happier.
Anti-Farming in Hard Mode: Gaile Grey said that the Anti-Farming code isn't in Hard Mode. I, among many others with personal anecdotes, think she is wrong. A confirmation of either event would go a long way in Hard Mode PR.
LFG: Human parties can offer a huge advantage over Henchman/Heroes (even moreso if the PvE Sunspear skills are decent). Of course, it's hard to find people when they are spead across 56 missions, thus forces a reliability on H/H, Guildies. The only way to fix it is to make the Party Search affect the entire world for Hard Mode. Communities shouldn't have to have their own solution to this problem (although people such have Dralspire and Azarel STX have helped.)

I know many people have given up on GW's PvE due to its Sysphisian nature and gone to WoW instead (which takes a few months before it suffers from a Sysphisian nature). ArenaNet just finished with the ATS; can't they look at the PvE side of the game for once? (like maybe releasing the aforementioned Sunspear PvE skills which were intended to be released with Hard Mode a month ago?)

You should maybe add:

Difficulty: Add multiple skill sets for creatures that randomly load to them. Example, Elementlist could be fire or water or air or earth. Maybe even go so far as to make 2 fire builds and so on. Do so for each class. That way it is always a challenge without the cheap substitute of "Creatures move, attack 50% faster and cast and have skill recharge increases of 50%". A Hard Mode with some actual though put into it.

Reward: Or Merchants give a discount in that chapter if you Vanquished it. Same goes if you completed the all the missions and bonuses for that chapter as well.

Hard Mode Unique Loot: How about make those Jade Swords and the like drop a bit more as well?

Anti-Farming in Hard Mode: Was she referring to the anti-farming code of rezoning or the number of people farming that section?

The Great Al · May 16, 2007, 03:57 AM // 03:57

She was referring to the anti-farming code of rezoning.

ogre-mage · May 16, 2007, 03:57 AM // 03:57

It's made me leave, personally. I wont rejoin the game until it is reverted or repaired. That and soul reaping. So no 40$ from me for your damn expansion until you unsuck my game, Anet.

1 up and 2 down · May 16, 2007, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Alderin, I am pretty sure Gaile was being vague and talking about the rezoning farm code, not the amount of people farming.

/signed

I know I don't do hard mode atm because I have many NM things to do, but I plan on doing HM once I get those things done. Also these ideas do sound nice and would probably get HM more active.

Zinger314 · May 16, 2007, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Exact quote from Gaile regarding Anti-Farm (For Reference)

Quote:

Hi,

I just want to make sure that everyone knows: We have made absolutely no changes to the drops since we introduced Hard Mode.

Quote:

We removed the anti-faming code in normal mode. The code was never implemented in Hard Mode. So no, there is no anti-farming code in Hard Mode.

In addition, based on player feedback and our own review of data from the early hours of the introduction of Hard Mode, we excluded several items from loot scaling, as explained here.

I hope this is helpful information.

VitisVinifera · May 16, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

^ it's pretty clear from that, that Gaile straight-faced lied to us. Despite that it's obviously wrong, she's been silent on it.

Regarding HM, yeah it has all the trappings of a gimmick that will only hold attention for a short amount of time, before it's flaws and lack of reward/accomplishment makes it a junk feature.

I'm in a PvE alliance, and that's about the only shot one has at accomplishing anything, and even then, it's a big meh. Certainly not to satisfy the 'go for broke' nature of it's associated titles. The lie about the Sunspear skills coming out 'soon' contributes to this.

VinnyRidira · May 16, 2007, 04:18 AM // 04:18

The few Missions I have attempted in hard mode are ridiculously unbalanced. They were never designed and play tested in hard mode so the feel of them is wrong. They are too simple in some areas and far too complex in others. I can see the original developer crying due to excessive laughter or anguish when seeing how they play. I have done quests and that in hard mode and that is not so hard. I agree the drops are pathetic and I feel that there is some form of anti farming taking place, a bit like do not drop anything much at first but increase it later.

The Great Al · May 16, 2007, 04:24 AM // 04:24

She didn't lie to us..the anti-farming from rezoning seems to be gone. What is not gone, however, is the loot scaling from the area being farmed by lots of different players...she never said that would be gone.

Navaros · May 16, 2007, 04:30 AM // 04:30

2k still isn't even close to worth Vanquishing an area for. Should be 10k per vanquished zone. Only then would it be worth the time. Even then, it would still be way faster to farm ectos to get over 10k, so that's still a conservative number.

Rewards need to be increased alot across the board, because very few people will ever play HM otherwise, which makes it very hard or impossible to find a human party.

Agree the titles need more benefits attached to them.

Agree that party search needs to be fixed to include searches across all zones.

Agree the tomes need to drop way more or perhaps simply not ever go to AI bots and always drop to the real players.

ogre-mage · May 16, 2007, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Gaile probably didn't lie. Not directly. It's probably more like the Anti-Farm code ISN'T in Hard Mode, but there's some other code with a different name (anti-loot code lol) making Hard Mode suck. But even if that weren't sucking, loot in the game would still be a mess with how low it is.

Curse You · May 16, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Al

She didn't lie to us..the anti-farming from rezoning seems to be gone. What is not gone, however, is the loot scaling from the area being farmed by lots of different players...she never said that would be gone.

That would be because there is no such code. The number of people playing in the same area (but different instance) have no effect on your drops. How else do you think ectoplasm would still be dropping?

The Great Al · May 16, 2007, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

That would be because there is no such code. The number of people playing in the same area (but different instance) have no effect on your drops. How else do you think ectoplasm would still be dropping?

I'm sorry, but there is no way this is true. In fact, this is probably one of the main reasons that the HM drops are so bad.

There is a popular farming spot that was posted here a while back. When the guy posted it, he was getting 2-3 golds per run (a 'run' took maybe 3 minutes). He posted it here, and by the time I had gotten to it (after having never farmed there before) I was getting 1 gold every 3 or 4 runs. This guy farmed the area a TON, and eventually he noticed that his drops were getting less and less. However, no one else was able to experience the drops that he was getting when he discovered the run.

VitisVinifera · May 16, 2007, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Great Al, the workings of anti-farm is far from completely understood, but I think you are confusing 2 things: number of instances affecting drop rate (which most people dispute), and flags increasing as you overfarm in general (which I believe is the case).

I had a similar experience to yours: I 55/105 farmed the hell out of a few areas (dead swords, corsairs, gates of kryta), when I actually believed Gaile that there was no anti-farm in HM. Well, I got myself into anti-farm abyss, and it follows me to any zone I farm for the first time, whether it's a popular spot or not. I've tried hydras: nil. The Sandstorm Crags in Joko's Domain for Elemental Swords: not even a purple. And random places, looking for new farm spots that haven't caught on yet: still nothing.

undeadgun · May 16, 2007, 04:58 AM // 04:58

i totally agree zingers point, after u get title then what? i got Legendary Gurdian, and i am 26/34 elonian vanquisher, after all these, what i got?? couple hundrad gold in each area, a title, 1-2 exp, then what? nothing else, and yes, the bosses are really mean and hard, with a henchie hero group u cant survive, mostly your heros and hencies cant survive from a single meteor or spirit rife, or even 134 dmg fire storm... so yea, it need to be fixed or some how, i cant afford 10+ four leaf clovers per run

lutz · May 16, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Al

I'm sorry, but there is no way this is true. In fact, this is probably one of the main reasons that the HM drops are so bad.

There is a popular farming spot that was posted here a while back. When the guy posted it, he was getting 2-3 golds per run (a 'run' took maybe 3 minutes). He posted it here, and by the time I had gotten to it (after having never farmed there before) I was getting 1 gold every 3 or 4 runs. This guy farmed the area a TON, and eventually he noticed that his drops were getting less and less. However, no one else was able to experience the drops that he was getting when he discovered the run.

Ever occur to you that he might be lying, or he might have experienced one lucky run, and went crazy about it?

Curse You · May 16, 2007, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Al

I'm sorry, but there is no way this is true. In fact, this is probably one of the main reasons that the HM drops are so bad.

There is a popular farming spot that was posted here a while back. When the guy posted it, he was getting 2-3 golds per run (a 'run' took maybe 3 minutes). He posted it here, and by the time I had gotten to it (after having never farmed there before) I was getting 1 gold every 3 or 4 runs. This guy farmed the area a TON, and eventually he noticed that his drops were getting less and less. However, no one else was able to experience the drops that he was getting when he discovered the run.

So then why is it that I can still get about 1 ectpoplasm every 5-10 runs? By your logic, it should be taking me 100+ runs to get 1, seeing how the UW is probably one of the most over farmed areas.

The Great Al · May 16, 2007, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitisVinifera

Great Al, the workings of anti-farm is far from completely understood, but I think you are confusing 2 things: number of instances affecting drop rate (which most people dispute), and flags increasing as you overfarm in general (which I believe is the case).

I had a similar experience to yours: I 55/105 farmed the hell out of a few areas (dead swords, corsairs, gates of kryta), when I actually believed Gaile that there was no anti-farm in HM. Well, I got myself into anti-farm abyss, and it follows me to any zone I farm for the first time, whether it's a popular spot or not. I've tried hydras: nil. The Sandstorm Crags in Joko's Domain for Elemental Swords: not even a purple. And random places, looking for new farm spots that haven't caught on yet: still nothing.

I understand that in the past, if you farm, rezone, farm, etc over and over in the same area, the anti-farming code would be put into affect. That is what I believe Gaile was referring to when she said that the anti-farming code had been gotten rid of.

But I was still under the impression that an area that has been overfarmed by a lot of people will still give less drops (regardless of any 'anti farming code' which I referred to above).